Debate on MSNBC "Environment"

i've debated the facts with skeptics in the past on this site and i've found that i'm not really ready to engage in that debate. wagmc presented some very clear and concise arguments, and i've digested them. i'm a smart guy, but i'm somewhat out of my league as is most everyone on this media-run website. i'm still sticking with the majority opinion of science though, that we're at least partially to blame for the current warming period, and we should do something about it. at worst, what will happen if we act and the IPCC is wrong? we'll lose 1% out of our pockets? we'll get out of the middle east, reduce smog, and help countless other side-environmental issues? seems well worth it.
geoPeter,
thanks for elaborating on your background. you didn't answer my other question though...
What you're saying is that GW is not happening at all? I've seen two different types of skeptics... the skeptic who denies it's happening, and the skeptic who denies man is causing it. Which are you? Please clarify your position. Bc if you're the latter, you might want to change your statement. Most experts on either side of the issue agree it's happening and that we at least need to spend the $$ to adapt...

bis 830
Message #8605/06/07 12:41 AM
My answer to you, Head out of Sand, must be to replicate the post of geoPeter1 who summarized the key problem expertly in two paragraphs.

"Most relevant to this discussion, each layer reflects the climate of the time the sediments were deposited. The layers are correlated from place to place, all around the world, the results are constantly debated, but the principles are well understood. Climate change is a constant, in the distant past, the near past, the present, and in the future.

With that said, I have great trust in the work of geologists who see no human effect in past climate changes, (how can there be, since man has only been here a short time) and see no human influence in current climate changes." Visit my blog to read far more, please. http://petesplace-peter.blogspot.com/



GCB Stokes
Message #8705/06/07 03:53 AM
geoPeter1
Message #83 - 05/03/07 01:26 AM
Sedimentary rocks, (the layered rocks) in particular, represent the history of the Earth, and almost like a book, reveal it page by page.
Here in lays, along with other real, actual and physical evidence such as Ice Cores and sentiments is the real truth regarding climate change as I've repeated many times on the message board and in my work. As far as is Global Warming (Cause by man or anthropogenic warming) real or is it happening? No, and yes! Global Warming as in Man Made Global Warming is NOT Happening! What is happening is Climate Change. The pro-warming fan club internationally blurs the line between the two in an effort to confuse the general public to win false support. We are warming, however this is part of natural climate change/shift and is not anthropogenic warming at all. The real evidence shows this and can not be disputed at all, but any. And there is very much of it.

Pro Man-Made Warming fans, Al Gore and the IPCC have no real evidence to support the beliefs/wants of the great consensus. If they did, don't you believe it would be logical to assume that they would have shown the world by now this real evidence? But all they have to offer is report after report, and IPCC Assessment after assessments all based on the same old computer climate simulations (A computers best guess) to support their unproven theory. Each and every piece of evidence that pro man-made warming fans have is base solely on unreliable climate models that are no better today, then Dr. Syukuro Manabe's primitive climate models from 1969 at predicting future temperature rise, despite billions upon billions being spent over the years for new super computers a million or more times more powerful. Even the early super computers used here in the U.S., the Hadley Center in the UK and others could dice the atmosphere into a grid where each box was about 185 miles on a side. The best ocean models right after that compose cubs of 85 miles.

The Hadley Center, new U.S. Models such as the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory and the massive supercomputing center in Yokohama, Japan known as The Frontier Research System For Global Change all are vastly greater computer powers and can take oceans resolution to cubes about 20 miles on a side which is detailed enough to capture the important eddies that shunt heat and carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into the depths. And still as seen in the IPCC's soon to be released 4th Assessment Report they predict the very same wide temperature ranges as did Dr. Syukuro Manabe's primitive climate model did in 1969 (The very first climate model simulation ever) of 3 to 8 degree F. In the IPCC 4th Assessment Report they are calling for 2.5 to 8 degrees F. Wow, we sure have not come a long way at all baby, no sir, not at all! But what we have done, is wasted trillions of tax payers dollars getting no where fast!

GCB Stokes
Message #8805/06/07 03:54 AM
So, the short answer to you question, "do you believe Global Warming is real and happening, or not happening at all," is "Anthropogenic (Man Made) Global Warming is not happening at all. Natural Climate Change is happening and warming things up just as it has always done after all Ice Ages, and really warms up just before a new Ice Age/Cooling period. Those saying investing 1% into fight Man Made Global Warming would do now harm and would only help clean things up and reduce smog are dead wrong! That 1% could be use to better prepare man for the cooling that will surely come. If not, then we are going to get cough with our paints down when it's very cold! There is no proof that man is warming the earth at all, yet there is a great deal of real proof that things will get cold again after the warming This is what we need to prepare for even if Al Gore & Friends Inc. don't make half of what they thought they would with in finical gains with "Carbon Offsets" and other profit scams.

Let us all hope and pray people like Al Gore and his supporters are still with us when the cooling begins and they are exposed. Just like the great scientific consensus that believed the earth was the center of our universe, the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat. And who have flip-flopped from warming to ice ages six times in a little over 100 years. Because I for one of many, will take great pleasure in teaching our children of the great Buffoon who caused great and wide spread hysteria, and made a great number of very gullible and small minded people believe in a massive scam perpetrated for the purpose of personal, political and finical gain.

I just got back for a week working in my field, conducting scientific research in the mountains and forests. And it's good to be back! I see my guys have been doing a very good job of getting the truth out. Great work by all of the man and woman of truth be told science!

And GeoPet, nicely articulated